A Conversation Over Coffee

Because of their superlative fresh locally roasted coffee and some of the country’s top baristas, it is rare to find a quiet day at Intelligencia Coffee Shop in downtown Chicago, but with the early morning Lake effect blizzard and temperatures in the teens, most people stayed away from work. The cold didn’t stop me from meeting my friend for an extended, and as it turned out, informative discussion.

I should introduce myself. My name is Bill Mansfield, and I’m an almost 40 pastor of an emerging Gen-X church, although I come from a conservative, Republican, suburban, white background. My friend is Jason Tucker, a 30-something, gay, metrosexual computer programmer who makes at least twice what I do, and comes from a liberal Democratic, highly educated background. My dad sells boxes for a living in Milwaukee; both his parents are professors at Tufts University in Boston.

How we became friends is a story in itself, and I would say an evidence of God’s grace, but that will have to wait for another time. Jason is what we evangelical Christians would call a “seeker”. He has not made a commitment to Christ, but he isn’t closed to the idea. We meet weekly for coffee – me with my 20-ounce, quad, one-fourth decaf, one pump skinny mocha, and Jason with his 12-ounce, non-fat, extra dry, hazelnut latte, both in ceramic cups, and both graced with latte art.

Since we started meeting about six months ago, a strange transformation has slowly seeped into me. When I first met Jason, I was self-conscious. Occasionally, I’d wonder if he was attracted to me, or if people would think I was gay. Over time, though, I came to see Jason just as friend, rather than as a gay friend.

Jason got to Intelligencia ahead of me and greeted me as I came in, my glasses still steamed up from the transition from ice cold to toasty warm.

“Hey Rev, what’s up?”

“Not much, home boy, what be the haps?”

A handshake, coats off, ice melting off our soles, hot coffee with that amazing latte art in cups cradled under our noses, and we picked up where we left off last week.

“I have a question for you”, Jason began. “Why are evangelicals so blitzed out over gay marriage? Why not just equalize love and leave people alone?”

“Good question. Of course, most evangelicals would argue that unless marriage is defined as one woman and one man, that is, if society redefines marriage as something other than one man and one woman, it will undermine marriage as it has been understood for millennia. They would go on to argue that traditional marriage is the essential cornerstone upon which human society is built, and if it is removed, society will collapse.”

“Sounds a mite melodramatic and histrionic to me. The overwhelming majority of couples will always be heterosexual. It’s not a contagious disease, you know. At most, gay couples would make up maybe 10% of the total number of married couples, probably closer to 1%. How can that be a threat to anyone or anything? How can a relatively small number of gay couples bring down society? These are just people in committed relationships who want to be treated equally.”

“I don’t know, and perhaps you’re right. Perhaps the legalization of gay marriage would not have the all or nothing devastating impact on society that many fear. Certainly, the evangelical community with its high divorce rate isn’t dong much to sustain marriage as it has been practiced for centuries. Many African-Americans really object to the equation of a homosexual life-style with civil rights. They object to gays hitching a ride on their wagon.”

“But isn’t it a right in America, a fundamental essence of free society, to treat people equally in terms of housing, medical benefits, and such?”

“Good point. I personally certainly think everyone should have medical coverage and survivor benefits.”

“So what are evangelicals afraid of?”

“I think the fear is two-fold: First, it is a fear of redefining something as basic as marriage that has been with us for at least the last 5,000 years; and secondly, some straight people fear that homosexuals will (and maybe in some places are) invading schools and teaching kids that what they – the heterosexuals – see as sexually immoral behavior is normal.”

“Many of my homosexual friends fear the religious right.”

“Really, why’s that?”

“There’s a fear that once they gain political power, religious fanatics will either exterminate homosexuals like Hitler tried to do, or at least segregate us into concentration camps.”

“No way!”

“If you consider history, it’s not all that far fetched. I mean, look at Hitler, look at the Inquisition, the murder of homosexuals by the Catholic and Reformed churches in the middle ages, the recent examples of homophobic murder, the guys with the ‘put the homos to death’ signs.”

“Wow, you’re right. If I put myself in your place (as much as that’s possible) I can see how that would be a legitimate fear. Of course, I don’t think – at least I hope – it’s not realistic. I don’t know of anybody that would suggest such a thing, but then there are those guys with the ‘God hates fags’ signs like you said. What’s more, I can see that if I were gay and believed that it might be true that someone out there wanted to exterminate me, I’d be pretty defensive.”

“The religious right is pretty intolerant, for sure.”

“Don’t you think it is possible to love people and disagree with their lifestyle and behavior?”

“Maybe.”

Jason sipped his coffee contemplatively then asked, “How can the Bible condemn homosexuality when sexual preference is really not a preference at all, but instead is a genetic orientation over which a person has no control?”

“I would not want to say that the Bible condemns homosexuality because so many homosexuals identify their sexuality as the core of personhood. God doesn’t reject any persons. He loves everyone. He wants all to come to the knowledge of the truth. It is the homosexual act – the act of people of the same gender engaging in sexual intercourse – that the Bible says is wrong. I still hate the word “condemns” – it sounds so, you know, condemning.”

“But if my sexual orientation is who I am, aren’t you then either condemning me or consigning me to a life where love cannot be physically expressed?”

I thought a minute while I stirred my mocha – I love chocolate and some of it always sinks to the bottom.

“I understand what you’re saying, and le’me say up front, I’d like to apologize on behalf of Christians and churches everywhere because we have been condemning, judgmental, and unloving. We have given the homosexual community the entirely wrong vision of who God is. We’ve portrayed him as harsh, condemning, even violent.”

“How do you know he’s a he?” Jason laughed then continued without expecting an answer “That’s certainly the message the fundamentalists send, but you’re different. You never asked me about my sexuality even when you knew me well enough to know that my ‘roommate’ was really my gay lover.”

“I take that as a complement.”

“It was meant as one. But what then is the Bible saying exactly? Why do I keep hearing Christians, or maybe I should say ‘church people’ saying ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’?”

“Another phrase I dislike. It’s too glib. Too simplistic. Too easily translated into an excuse for hatred, intolerance, and discrimination, and it fails to recognize that it sounds like a rejection of the person who, like yourself, identifies himself as homosexual, who sees his homosexuality as an essential part of his personhood.”

Jason nodded dipped a biscotti in his drink, took a bite and sipped his latte.

“But to answer your question – there are various behaviors and attitudes that the Bible indicates are contrary to God’s highest will for people. You see, God is a God of love. He loves everybody. He sent his son Jesus to die for everyone, and he wants everyone to know him. When we come to know him, we learn to love him, and we learn that he is so loving and so kind that whatever he forbids or allows is always motivated by love, and is for our ultimate eternal good, even when we can’t see all that clearly at the moment.”

“’K, makes sense so far.”

“Anyway, the first order of business is to know him personally, to have a relationship with him, to know his unconditional acceptance and love. God doesn’t expect anyone to change their behavior before they come to him. That’s the proverbial cart before the horse. God loves you and wants a relationship with you.”

“You haven’t answered my question.”

“Ok, but know that the standards are standards for those who know him personally. One of those standards involves sexuality, which God created as good and right. In the Bible, God says that it is wrong for a man to have sex with another man. It’s equally wrong for a man to have sex with a woman to whom he’s not married, yet most heterosexuals do, at least before they have a personal relationship with God. With that relationship, the standards are on the one hand more stringent, but on the other hand, his Spirit enables us to do what he asks. Somebody said ‘I can do anything I want to, but God has changed my want-to’s’”.

“I can see a forbidding of random sex. It’s dangerous in a world with HIV and other STDs. I don’t have any problem with the denunciation of dangerous behavior. I can see how a loving God would do that, and frankly, I personally want nothing to do with the fringe radical homosexual community. I think groups like ACT-UP and Queer Nation give us all a bad name with their debaucherous displays. I mean, those guys masturbate from floats in public parades, expose themselves to little girls on their way into Sunday school, go through multiple partners, and rendezvous in men’s rooms. The whole Boy’s Town scene with the flamboyant transvestites strutting around is funny in my mind – it’s like they’re celebrating Halloween every Friday night. Those guys are harmless, but there’s admittedly like an element of the homosexual community that is violent towards other homosexuals – we have our share of nuts just like you heterosexuals do. Nevertheless, why would God object to a loving, committed, monogamous relationship between two men or two women who are genetically predisposed to homosexuality? My homosexual behavior is in the context of a committed relationship. I don’t exploit homeless male prostitutes or flash little girls. My sexual behavior is a genuine expression of love. How can that be wrong?”

“I don’t know, but if the Bible is to be believed, it is. There’s a lot about God I don’t understand. I’m on a journey, hopefully learning more and growing more each day. Sometimes I just have to take what God says and admit I don’t get it, but trust that it must be right. If all of God made sense to me, he’d be too small to worship. Many of his ways and many of his sayings are an enigma to me. You’ve taught me a great deal about what it feels like to be homosexual. (Not to mention you fixed my laptop for free!) Remember too that the jury is still out on whether or not homosexuality is a life-choice, learned behavior, genetically predisposed, or some combination.”

“I was talking to an Episcopal priest on the L the other day. He is heterosexual, married with kids, but supports gay rights. Says his church proudly displays the rainbow on their sign to show that gays are welcomed and affirmed. He read me some material that seems to indicate that the biblical passages opposing homosexuality, or you would say ‘homosexual behavior’, are really prohibitions against pedophilia.”

“Those passages can indeed be so interpreted, but only using a very liberal hermeneutic that essentially sees scripture as largely symbolic and poetic in its revelation of ‘deeper truth’, and sees it additionally as only one of many helpful spiritual books, written by fallible men and reflecting varying human views. If, however, the Bible is more than that – if it is God’s word – if it is true as written, then the liberal hermeneutic breaks down. The clear meaning of the passages in question is that sex between same sex partners is inconsistent with God’s will, that God’s highest plan is heterosexual sex within marriage. Pedophilia is also wrong, of course.”

“Are you saying two committed homosexual lovers are on the same moral level with pedophiles?”

“Not at all. I just meant that both are wrong, not equally wrong. Cheating on a test in school is wrong. Murdering someone is more wrong.”

“Sounds like you’re lumping what my partner and I do in the privacy of our home, what I would argue is a legitimate expression of love, with cheating, murder, and other ‘wrong’ behavior.” Jason punctuated the air with quotation marks around “wrong”.

“Sorry, didn’t mean to give you that impression, but we were simply talking about what the Bible says, again within the context of people in a personal relationship with God.”

“But what about these churches that ordain homosexuals, embrace homosexuality, and perform marriages or civil unions? It seems to me they are closer to your ideal of a loving, accepting community.”

“I can see how you’d think that. You know I’m more embarrassed by those ultra-fundamentalist people with their ‘God Hates Fags’ signs than I am by the liberal wing of the organized church. Most of the time, I seem to get along better with the left than the right. Still, it seems to me that as confusing as religion can be with so many different and sometimes contradictory voices all claiming to represent Christianity, the real issue is not religion at all. You know me. I’m not into religion, if we define it in the normal sense. The biblical definition of religion is caring for and visiting the poor, the bereaved, the homeless, and the elderly. If that’s what is meant by religion, I’m all for it, but what’s normally meant is a collection of formalized rituals, some quasi-spiritual exercises people go through to appease the conscience so they can keep on oppressing the poor, justifying their racism, slandering reputations, and rejecting people that don’t live up to their standards. I despise that form of religion.”

Jason nodded and sipped his coffee while I continued. “No, it’s not about religion. It’s not about gay or straight, or one’s political stance – it’s about a living person named Jesus. He literally rose bodily from the grave. He’s alive right now, not just in some spacey new-age sense, but alive in a real physical body just like you and I are. He’s in heaven, but he can communicate with us by his Spirit. Jesus loves us. He loves you. Just the way you are. He accepts you just the way you are and wants to have a living, vital, personal relationship with you right now. That’s the bottom line.”

Jason drained his cup and set it down. “Can I have that relationship you speak of and still be homosexual?”

“Yes you can.”

“Promise God won’t turn me into a redneck Republican war-monger?”

“I promise”, I said with a broad smile. “God is neither white, nor Republican, nor American.”

“But you said previously that homosexual behavior is contrary to the scriptures, which you believe were written by God. So, if God says homosexual behavior is wrong, how can he accept me as a homosexual?”

“God doesn’t see you as a homosexual, or me as a heterosexual, or that guy walking by as African-American – he sees us as people. Men and women, created in his image, precious to him, of infinite beauty, potential, and worth, women and men worth redeeming. He invites all of us to come to him just as we are. If there are things in our lives that need changing – and certainly there is room for improvement in every life – then he’ll lovingly work on us and help us change, usually gradually and over time.”

“But homosexual is what I am. You can’t change what I am without replacing me with someone else.”

“I think it is sad when people define themselves by their sexual orientation. A human being is so much more than that. You’re a man, a person, you have infinite worth. Look, I like you as a friend. I don’t see you as my ‘gay friend’, I see you as my friend. Similarly, God sees you as his child, and his love for you has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. He wouldn’t love you more if you were heterosexual. He couldn’t love you any more than he does, because his love is already infinite.”

“So I can come to him just as I am and he will accept me?”

“Absolutely.”

“How do I do that?”

“Just pray. Prayer just means talking to God. He can hear you wherever you are. Tell him you need a savior. Tell him you know you don’t have a personal relationship with him yet, but you want one. Ask him to forgive anything you’ve done displeasing to him. Tell him you want him to come into your heart.”

“You know, you’re the first Christian I’ve ever met who didn’t either condemn me or tell me everything was fine just as it is. I know I need something. There’s emptiness inside, a spiritual longing, and I think this Jesus of yours is the answer.”

I smiled and nodded.

“If I come to your church, what will people say?”

“Welcome, glad to have you.”

“How about if I bring my life partner David?”

“Welcome, glad to have you both.”

In the quietness of the coffee shop, I held hands with Jason and listened as he softly, intelligently, and sincerely gave his heart to Christ. We walked arm in arm into the cold brisk Chicago wind not caring what anybody thought.

©2006 by Lawrence Russell Taylor. All rights reserved worldwide. The conversation chronicled above is entirely fictitious and does not necessary represent any individual’s or any organization’s opinion.

Comments

[Lee]

In response to my respondant: how about being a sinner and self-righteous?

[J.G. Langley]

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,* not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." - 1 Peter 3:9

"16 For God so loved the world,* that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." - John 3:16-18

"9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Flee Sexual Immorality. 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-20

The Word of God speaks clearly for itself. Christ died for ALL. He loves ALL OF HIS CREATION. He desires ALL to come to repentance. I pray EVERY SINGLE DAY that my homosexual sister and her partner will repent and be translated from the ALL that He loves and died for to the few that receive and apply the free gift of His grace. And with that repentance comes regeneration, and justification, which results in what Paul described in 1 Cor 6:11: "And such WERE some of you, BUT YOU WERE WAHSED." I've known Jesus nearly my entire life (for as long as I can remember), and I've been living for him for 15 years now. And yes, I still break His heart by refusing to take "the way of escape" from temptation sometimes. But as one who has been crucified with Christ and born from above, can I live as a sexually immoral person, an idolater, an adulterer, one who practices homosexuality, a thief, a greedy person, a drunk, a reviler, or a swindler? CERTAINLY NOT! That's who I used to be! I was the scum of all scum. I cared only about what made me happy and what I wanted to do. But I WAS like that, and have now been washed. I'm a new creation; the old me has passed away and behold all things have been made new.

Does this mean I no longer sin? I WISH!!! First John makes it clear that sinning should no longer be part of the believer's life, but IF we sin we have an advocate with the Father. But the entire New Testament - all of Jesus' teaching as the epistles - teaches that there is a decided difference between those who have the Spirit of God indwelling them and those who walk solely in the flesh.

All that to say that while I pray every day that my homosexual sister will recognize the need for forgiveness and redemption and accept the unending and radical love of God in Christ Jesus, I cannot see or agree that the Bible infers that we continue to live as sinners of any sort (including homosexuality) after we are regenerated. (This is in reference to Lee Godwin’s comments: “As far as being a Christian and a homosexual, pedophile, alcoholic, adulterer, liar, gossiper, or any other defining acts of being a "sinner", you are 100% correct. Sometimes it's conveniently "forgotten" that it's a fact of who we are until we die or until He comes.”) If we continue to live this way we have no fellowship with Him (according to the Bible - 1st John). If it were any other way, then it would mean that Jesus' substitutionary death, the Spirit that He seals and fills us, and the Holy Word of God all have NO POWER TO REGENERATE and SANCTIFY us. Since this is the opposite of what the Word of God says, then I must agree with the apostle John that those who are His no longer practice sin, and with the apostle Paul that after being "washed", we are no longer sinners, but sinners saved by grace; a grace that transforms us on the inside so that it shows on the outside. A grace that drives us crazy with love for our God to the point of hating the thought of hurting Him by trampling under foot His precious blood! A grace that causes us to fear and honor and respect our awesome Creator and crave fellowship with our Heavenly Father.

Please pray that my sister receives this grace and is transformed into the image of Christ.

[Lee Godwin]

I enjoyed the story (hopefully a true one) and the young man's sincere prayer (only to be determined by God). I think that the agenda of the homosexual community is summed up in the young man's statements of "acceptance" and "political power". It is fine and right for any Christian to stand against and condemn these things, but remain accepting and loving to those professing and condoning them. As anything can be "fanaticized", it can also be "watered-down". Both are equally wrong and to be guarded against, both personally and publically. Furthermore, as a parent, I do not owe my children a reason everytime I say "No". How infinitely more does God not owe us one. More often than not, the answer is to simply acknowledge Him, who He is, and obey. As far as being a Christian and a homosexual, pedophile, alcoholic, adulterer, liar, gossiper, or any other defining acts of being a "sinner", you are 100% correct. Sometimes it's conveniently "forgotten" that it's a fact of who we are until we die or until He comes. God hates those things within us all (therefore His judgement) and loves us, died for us, calls us, desires our presence in His life... just the same.